Discussion:
Did Jae commit suicide?
(too old to reply)
t***@lost.lost
2006-10-12 21:27:34 UTC
Permalink
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.

I had the real feeling that Jin was going to look up and see Sun's father
and a couple goons on the balcony and then get a stern lecture from the
old man about not finishing the job.

Oh well, I suppose I'll have to take it for what it appears to be at face
value; I was just a bit disappointed in how it played out.

--thelostguy

Games I Play: The Cerberus Incident: http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/

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Richard DeLuca
2006-10-12 22:49:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.
I had the real feeling that Jin was going to look up and see Sun's father
and a couple goons on the balcony and then get a stern lecture from the
old man about not finishing the job.
Oh well, I suppose I'll have to take it for what it appears to be at face
value; I was just a bit disappointed in how it played out.
Don't worry, we'll see that scene again. And don't take anything on
LOST at face value. I'd bet you're right about Sun's father.
Clem Clambake
2006-10-13 01:20:08 UTC
Permalink
When Jae's body landed on the car, the first thing that popped into my head
was "Whoa, Sun's father sent backup to make sure the job got done!" I
didn't think of it as a possible suicide right away.

For whatever that's worth. I'm not convinced one way or another. But,
there you go.
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.
I had the real feeling that Jin was going to look up and see Sun's father
and a couple goons on the balcony and then get a stern lecture from the
old man about not finishing the job.
Oh well, I suppose I'll have to take it for what it appears to be at face
value; I was just a bit disappointed in how it played out.
--thelostguy
Games I Play: The Cerberus Incident: http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
-----------------------------------------------------------
.... http://www.sb-software.com/android
-----------------------------------------------------------
c***@webtv.net
2006-10-13 01:52:26 UTC
Permalink
The way that Jae landed on the car is suspicious. He landed on his
back, with his head away from the building that he jumped or fell from.
The only way that could have happened was if he fell backwards from the
balcony. And as I said in another thread, he didn't scream at all, so
maybe he was already dead then thrown.
tdciago
2006-10-13 02:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@webtv.net
The way that Jae landed on the car is suspicious. He landed on his
back, with his head away from the building that he jumped or fell from.
Luckily for him, he landed right in front of the S(e)oul Gateway, so it
was a short trip to the afterlife. Especially since the former doorman
was right there to show him the way.
:)
Enrique Castanaveras
2006-10-13 03:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@webtv.net
The way that Jae landed on the car is suspicious. He landed on his
back, with his head away from the building that he jumped or fell from.
The only way that could have happened was if he fell backwards from the
balcony. And as I said in another thread, he didn't scream at all, so
maybe he was already dead then thrown.
Jumpers often spin as they fall. They land in all sorts of weird angles. I
remember one guy with his hip joint shoved up through his ribs.
Jack Locke
2006-10-13 05:00:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@webtv.net
The way that Jae landed on the car is suspicious. He landed on his
back, with his head away from the building that he jumped or fell from.
The only way that could have happened was if he fell backwards from the
balcony. And as I said in another thread, he didn't scream at all, so
maybe he was already dead then thrown.
He landed on his back because if he didn't there'd have been dozens of
brain-dead "Was that Locke that fell on Jin's car?" posts.

But seriously, the lack of a scream is consistent with him jumping
intentionally, as is the fact that the pearl necklace was still clutched in
his hand (the first would have also happened if he were already dead, but
the second would have been tough).
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-13 02:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.
He needed to fall on Jin's car to make the scene all the more surprising for
the audience. Having him fall 200 feet away or something wouldn't have had
the same dramatic effect.
David B
2006-10-13 03:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.
He needed to fall on Jin's car to make the scene all the more surprising for
the audience. Having him fall 200 feet away or something wouldn't have had
the same dramatic effect.
Yep, that was quite obvious. So obvious some people totally missed it.
Hunter
2006-10-13 04:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.
----
He was holding the pearl necklace out of love for her. A sort of
leaving this life for the other side and taking something with you of
that person symbolically.
Post by t***@lost.lost
I had the real feeling that Jin was going to look up and see Sun's father
and a couple goons on the balcony and then get a stern lecture from the
old man about not finishing the job.
----
I admit that thought did cross my mind but then I saw the Necklace. Oh
and to be clear I don't think Jae was aiming for Jin's car.
Post by t***@lost.lost
Oh well, I suppose I'll have to take it for what it appears to be at face
value; I was just a bit disappointed in how it played out.
--thelostguy
-----
Just a person despondent over a lost love and the realization he will
never see her again.

---->Hunter
Evil Bastard
2006-10-13 11:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hunter
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.
----
He was holding the pearl necklace out of love for her. A sort of
leaving this life for the other side and taking something with you of
that person symbolically.
Post by t***@lost.lost
I had the real feeling that Jin was going to look up and see Sun's father
and a couple goons on the balcony and then get a stern lecture from the
old man about not finishing the job.
----
I admit that thought did cross my mind but then I saw the Necklace. Oh
and to be clear I don't think Jae was aiming for Jin's car.
Post by t***@lost.lost
Oh well, I suppose I'll have to take it for what it appears to be at face
value; I was just a bit disappointed in how it played out.
--thelostguy
-----
Just a person despondent over a lost love and the realization he will
never see her again.
---->Hunter
I was thinking that Sun's father had sent backup and they put the
necklace in Jae's hand before he was pushed. Nothing about the
character showed that he was suicidle, and was desperately in love with
Sun.
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-13 17:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Bastard
I was thinking that Sun's father had sent backup and they put the
necklace in Jae's hand before he was pushed.
What would the point have been in putting the necklace in Jae's hand? Also,
if Jae was pushed, why would he continue to hold the necklace? I would think
he would try to brace himself, no matter how futile the attempt would have
been.
Hunter
2006-10-14 17:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Bastard
Post by Hunter
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.
----
He was holding the pearl necklace out of love for her. A sort of
leaving this life for the other side and taking something with you of
that person symbolically.
Post by t***@lost.lost
I had the real feeling that Jin was going to look up and see Sun's father
and a couple goons on the balcony and then get a stern lecture from the
old man about not finishing the job.
----
I admit that thought did cross my mind but then I saw the Necklace. Oh
and to be clear I don't think Jae was aiming for Jin's car.
Post by t***@lost.lost
Oh well, I suppose I'll have to take it for what it appears to be at face
value; I was just a bit disappointed in how it played out.
--thelostguy
-----
Just a person despondent over a lost love and the realization he will
never see her again.
---->Hunter
I was thinking that Sun's father had sent backup and they put the
necklace in Jae's hand before he was pushed. Nothing about the
character showed that he was suicidle, and was desperately in love with
Sun.
-----
That is why he was suicidal. He knew he couldn't see his Sun ever
again, that and a little bit because he was beating so badly.

---->Hunter
Joe B
2006-10-14 15:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hunter
Just a person despondent over a lost love and the realization he will
never see her again.
and the realization that the Korean Mafia will kill him.
Post by Hunter
---->Hunter
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-13 04:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the
pearl necklace), but it seems out of character.
Not to mention the coincidence that he fell
right on Jin's car.
Jae was scared to death thinking he was going to be shot by Jin. ...I
doubt an individual would go from this state to one of being suicidal, a
few minutes later. I bet the killer was one of those guys like the one
who confronted Jin in the washroom prior to his boarding the flight.
..I think the Fatherinlaw knew he wouldn't be able to do the job.
..After all, Jin did attempt to quit over having to deal with such a
request. ...Jon
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-13 09:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@webtv.net
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the
pearl necklace), but it seems out of character.
Not to mention the coincidence that he fell
right on Jin's car.
Jae was scared to death thinking he was going to be shot by Jin. ...I
doubt an individual would go from this state to one of being suicidal, a
few minutes later.
Why not? It was an impulse. What was he going to say to Jin after Jin told
him to leave the country and never return, "Then put a bullet in my brain
right now!"

An emotional trigger set Jae off, and he didn't think things through.
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-13 15:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Post by J***@webtv.net
Jae was scared to death thinking he was
going to be shot by Jin. ...I doubt an
individual would go from this state to one of
being suicidal, a few minutes later.
Why not? It was an impulse. What was he
going to say to Jin after Jin told him to leave
the country and never return, "Then put a
bullet in my brain right now!"
An emotional trigger set Jae off, and he didn't
think things through.
But Jae knew the game was up, the moment they were discovered by Sun's
Father. ...Did he actually think Jin would be coming over for a
friendly visit? ...And of course, Jin wasn't aware of the direct
particulars of their meeting, but Jae sure the heck was. ...I bet
after he was threatened by Jin, he picked up the pearls to reminisce
over their last encounter, (and thanking God, he was still alive) and
then one of the back-up killers walked in the room.

Personally, I don't think he would have been suicidal, just over a few
night stands. He knew what he was doing was wrong. ...Jon
Tom Hall
2006-10-13 13:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@webtv.net
Jae was scared to death thinking he was going to be shot by Jin. ...I
doubt an individual would go from this state to one of being suicidal, a
few minutes later. I bet the killer was one of those guys like the one
who confronted Jin in the washroom prior to his boarding the flight.
..I think the Fatherinlaw knew he wouldn't be able to do the job.
..After all, Jin did attempt to quit over having to deal with such a
request. ...Jon
I agree with you. There's nothing I gleaned from rewatching the episode
that would suggest to me that Jae was suicidal. Given the way that he
totally buckled under Jin's assault, I would wager that he's too much of a
coward to commit suicide.

My money's on him running around his place, cleaning himself up and
planning his escape from the country, when daddy's goons came in and
finished what Jin couldn't. I can see Jae staring moodily at the necklace,
realizing that his affair with Sun was over, and there's no reason why he
couldn't have been clutching it when his ticket got punched.



Tom
--
remove .spoo to reply by email
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-13 15:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Hall
I can see Jae staring moodily at the necklace,
realizing that his affair with Sun was over, and
there's no reason why he couldn't have been
clutching it when his ticket got punched.
Perhaps he walked out on the balcony (was there a balcony?), to throw
the pearls away. IE: move on with his life. ...Then came the surprise
boot from behind. ...Jon
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-13 17:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Hall
I agree with you. There's nothing I gleaned from rewatching the episode
that would suggest to me that Jae was suicidal.
Suicide can often be an impulsive act.
Post by Tom Hall
My money's on him running around his place, cleaning himself up and
planning his escape from the country, when daddy's goons came in and
finished what Jin couldn't.
You want us to believe that Jae did all of that in the time it took Jin to
return to his car?
Steven L.
2006-10-15 18:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Hall
Post by J***@webtv.net
Jae was scared to death thinking he was going to be shot by Jin. ...I
doubt an individual would go from this state to one of being suicidal, a
few minutes later. I bet the killer was one of those guys like the one
who confronted Jin in the washroom prior to his boarding the flight.
..I think the Fatherinlaw knew he wouldn't be able to do the job.
..After all, Jin did attempt to quit over having to deal with such a
request. ...Jon
I agree with you. There's nothing I gleaned from rewatching the episode
that would suggest to me that Jae was suicidal. Given the way that he
totally buckled under Jin's assault, I would wager that he's too much of a
coward to commit suicide.
My money's on him running around his place, cleaning himself up and
planning his escape from the country, when daddy's goons came in and
finished what Jin couldn't.
Paik's goons might even have been listening at the door to Jae's suite,
and overheard Jin tell Jae just to leave the country. So then they knew
they had to finish the job themselves.
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: ***@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
rwgibson13
2006-10-13 16:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
The evidence points to it (he was holding the pearl necklace), but it
seems out of character. Not to mention the coincidence that he fell right
on Jin's car.
I had the real feeling that Jin was going to look up and see Sun's father
and a couple goons on the balcony and then get a stern lecture from the
old man about not finishing the job.
Oh well, I suppose I'll have to take it for what it appears to be at face
value; I was just a bit disappointed in how it played out.
This is what I love about some "Lost" fans. They worry too much about
the trivial stuff. I bet it drives the producers crazy :-)

No wonder so many fans complain about not getting "answers..."

RWG (because so many of the questions that they want answered don't
really NEED to be answered)
t***@lost.lost
2006-10-14 16:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by rwgibson13
This is what I love about some "Lost" fans. They worry too much about
the trivial stuff. I bet it drives the producers crazy :-)
My point in starting this thread wasn't really to start a discussion of
the rotational physicals of falling bodies, the ability of a suicide
victim to hold onto a necklace, or whether Sun has the physical strength
to push Jae off a balcony.

What I do believe, is that the producers got the scene WRONG. Many other
fans appear to agree with me. It was not in Jae's character to commit
suicide. The scene would have played out much better with one of Paik's
goons pushing Jae over. It would have been in character for Paik not to
trust his son-in-law to get the job done.

Of course, as the other posters point out, we could revisit this scene in
the future, possibly from the perspective of Paik, Sun, or the goon.
However, I'd put my odds that the producers are done with it. I'd like to
think the producers/writers had better plans for Jae, but I'm willing to
accept that they don't.

--thelostguy

Games I Play: The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/

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NightRaven
2006-10-15 15:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
Post by rwgibson13
This is what I love about some "Lost" fans. They worry too
much about
the trivial stuff. I bet it drives the producers crazy :-)
My point in starting this thread wasn't really to start a
discussion
of the rotational physicals of falling bodies, the ability of a
suicide victim to hold onto a necklace, or whether Sun has the
physical strength to push Jae off a balcony.
What I do believe, is that the producers got the scene WRONG.
Many
other fans appear to agree with me. It was not in Jae's
character to
commit suicide.
I think this is a cultural thing that might be difficult to
understand.
Jae, having been discovered as an adulteror and subsequentely
been beaten up and humilated by Jin forcing him to leave the
country forever, has lost face. In that situation he might feel
like he *has* to commit suicide.
Honor is very big in many Asian countries. While I don't know
much about Koreans, I do know about Chinese and Japanese culture
and Japan has one of the highest suicide-rates in the world.
And please do not try to cast judgement over this, it's only our
culture that has cast a stigma on suicide, other cultures look
differentely at it. Look it at from the other side, what would he
have to life for after this ? He could never return to his
country of birth, never see again the woman he loved, probably
never see any of his family again. Lost respect from his
business-partners, and knowing that Mr. Pike would eventually
find out that he didn't die and track him down someday.
In many ways, it didn't matter much wether or not Jin killed him,
he was a dead man walking the moment Suns father walked in on
them. Sun must have known this risk, yet didn't care. Just like
she didn't care about their maid being punished for the glass
ballerina. I think we're supposed to learn that Sun is simply not
a nice person.

- NightRaven
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-15 15:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by NightRaven
I think this is a cultural thing that might be
difficult to understand.
Jae, having been discovered as an adulteror
and subsequentely been beaten up and
humilated by Jin forcing him to leave the
country forever, has lost face. In that situation
he might feel like he *has* to commit suicide.
Honor is very big in many Asian countries.
So what did he expect? After he ran off with Sun, Jin would track him
down, and invite him over for tea? This is why I think it was
pre-planned. ...If a person is honorable, they don't go sneaking around
with someone else's wife. ...Especially when she's the daughter of some
Korean mafia(?) leader -- whose husband just so happes to work for the
guy.. ...Jon
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-15 16:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@webtv.net
So what did he expect? After he ran off with Sun, Jin would track him
down, and invite him over for tea? This is why I think it was
pre-planned.
How do you plan something before you plan it?
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-15 21:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
How do you plan something before you plan
it?
Pre-planned, as in it was planned some time back. ....Jon
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-15 21:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
How do you plan something before you plan
it?
Pre-planned, as in it was planned some time back. ....Jon
Which, in plain, normal English is "planned."
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-15 22:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Which, in plain, normal English is "planned."
A quick google search demonstrates that 619,000 web site authors
disagree with you. ...And incidentally, you don't need a comma after
"which". ...Jon
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-16 05:30:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Which, in plain, normal English is "planned."
A quick google search demonstrates that 619,000 web site authors
disagree with you. ...And incidentally, you don't need a comma after
"which". ...Jon
I did leave out the coma after "English."

But as far as the "pre-planned" nonsense, you might want to take a writing
class.
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-16 16:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
I did leave out the coma after "English."
...<Ryan mode on> At appears "you're" in a coma, most of the time.
Post by Ryan Robbins
But as far as the "pre-planned" nonsense, you
might want to take a writing class.
There are many redundancies used in English: new beginning, safe haven,
irregardless, etc. ...It just helps to use these words (at times), to
get the point across. Why don't you try sticking to the subject at
hand, instead of worrying over such trivial matters? ...Jon
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-16 18:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
I did leave out the coma after "English."
...<Ryan mode on> At appears "you're" in a coma, most of the time.

That's what happens when I'm tired. So I guess I was in a coma.
Post by Ryan Robbins
But as far as the "pre-planned" nonsense, you
might want to take a writing class.
There are many redundancies used in English: new beginning, safe haven,
irregardless, etc. ...It just helps to use these words (at times), to
get the point across.
It's poor writing.
Richard DeLuca
2006-10-16 19:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@webtv.net
There are many redundancies used in English: new beginning, safe haven,
irregardless, etc. ...It just helps to use these words (at times), to
get the point across. Why don't you try sticking to the subject at
hand, instead of worrying over such trivial matters? ...Jon
Irregardless? Irregardless? Irregardless?? AAARRGH!!!

Please folks, there is no such word. Think about it a minute; if you
dissect it, it means NOT regardless.

Sorry Johnny, it's one of my pet peeves. The word you are looking for
is simply 'regardless.'
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-17 00:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Irregardless? Irregardless? Irregardless??
AAARRGH!!!
Please folks, there is no such word. Think
about it a minute; if you dissect it, it means
NOT regardless.
When I took 1st. year English (quite a few years back), I remember how
irregardless was (then) considered to be a non-existing word. --In spite
of its common usage. ...Now, however, I'm reluctant to categorize it
as such, simply because it is starting to show up in a number of
dictionaries -- being listed as an adverb with a meaning somewhere
between regardless and irrespective.
Sorry Johnny, it's one of my pet peeves. The
word you are looking for is simply 'regardless.'
I agree. ...But "like I said", there are many redundant words and
phrases that have become quite common place in every day speech: Lift
up, hot-water heater, past history, prerecorded. ...We've all used them.
..And in spite of what Ryan might say, Preplan --which is on the list
too-- is listed in the Funk and Wagnall's dictionary. ...Jon
Richard DeLuca
2006-10-17 01:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@webtv.net
Irregardless? Irregardless? Irregardless??
AAARRGH!!!
Please folks, there is no such word. Think
about it a minute; if you dissect it, it means
NOT regardless.
When I took 1st. year English (quite a few years back), I remember how
irregardless was (then) considered to be a non-existing word. --In spite
of its common usage. ...Now, however, I'm reluctant to categorize it
as such, simply because it is starting to show up in a number of
dictionaries -- being listed as an adverb with a meaning somewhere
between regardless and irrespective.
Sorry Johnny, it's one of my pet peeves. The
word you are looking for is simply 'regardless.'
I agree. ...But "like I said", there are many redundant words and
phrases that have become quite common place in every day speech: Lift
up, hot-water heater, past history, prerecorded. ...We've all used them.
..And in spite of what Ryan might say, Preplan --which is on the list
too-- is listed in the Funk and Wagnall's dictionary. ...Jon
Johnny,

Thanks for the thoughtful response and I do see your point. However,
even if certain words make the dictionary it doesn't make their usage
correct. When we use them we appear ignorant. Not stupid, but
ignorant.

Best Regards,
Rich
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-17 01:43:16 UTC
Permalink
Irregardless? Irregardless? Irregardless??
AAARRGH!!!
Please folks, there is no such word. Think
about it a minute; if you dissect it, it means
NOT regardless.
When I took 1st. year English (quite a few years back), I remember how
irregardless was (then) considered to be a non-existing word. --In spite
of its common usage. ...Now, however, I'm reluctant to categorize it
as such, simply because it is starting to show up in a number of
dictionaries -- being listed as an adverb with a meaning somewhere
between regardless and irrespective.
Sorry Johnny, it's one of my pet peeves. The
word you are looking for is simply 'regardless.'
I agree. ...But "like I said", there are many redundant words and
phrases that have become quite common place in every day speech: Lift
up, hot-water heater, past history, prerecorded. ...We've all used them.
..And in spite of what Ryan might say, Preplan --which is on the list
too-- is listed in the Funk and Wagnall's dictionary. ...Jon
Dictionaries do not tell you proper writing. All they do is list words and
definitions -- even inaccurate definitions.
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-17 05:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Dictionaries do not tell you proper writing.
Nor does "this" group require it. ...Jon
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-17 12:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Dictionaries do not tell you proper writing.
Nor does "this" group require it. ...Jon
Good writing is good communication. And that should be an everyday thing
that takes little thought.
J***@webtv.net
2006-10-17 16:56:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Good writing is good communication. And that
should be an everyday thing that takes little
thought.
Are you by any chance related to that guy who played Julia Robert's
husband in "Sleeping with the Enemy"? ...Jon
Shmoe
2006-10-17 19:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard DeLuca
Post by J***@webtv.net
There are many redundancies used in English: new beginning, safe haven,
irregardless, etc. ...It just helps to use these words (at times), to
get the point across. Why don't you try sticking to the subject at
hand, instead of worrying over such trivial matters? ...JonIrregardless? Irregardless? Irregardless?? AAARRGH!!!
Please folks, there is no such word. Think about it a minute; if you
dissect it, it means NOT regardless.
Sorry Johnny, it's one of my pet peeves. The word you are looking for
is simply 'regardless.'
Perhaps you were an english teacher in another life? Maybe you should
go back to it. :)

Clarke
2006-10-16 22:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Post by Ryan Robbins
Which, in plain, normal English is "planned."
A quick google search demonstrates that 619,000 web site authors
disagree with you. ...And incidentally, you don't need a comma after
"which". ...Jon
I did leave out the coma after "English."
But as far as the "pre-planned" nonsense, you might want to take a writing
class.
Maybe he was in a coma.

(By the way, I'm sorry you didn't get your first BJ over the summer. Though
it might cost you $50, perhaps she'll even be good enough to dislodge that
pickle from your ass.)
GWB
2006-10-16 23:34:24 UTC
Permalink
Of course he did.
Right after begging for his life he leaped out the fucking window.
NightRaven
2006-10-15 17:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@webtv.net
Post by NightRaven
I think this is a cultural thing that might be
difficult to understand.
Jae, having been discovered as an adulteror
and subsequentely been beaten up and
humilated by Jin forcing him to leave the
country forever, has lost face. In that situation
he might feel like he *has* to commit suicide.
Honor is very big in many Asian countries.
So what did he expect? After he ran off with Sun, Jin would
track him
down, and invite him over for tea?
Difficult to say, but at least then he'd have the woman he loved
beside him instead of being all alone.

- NightRaven
Amaranth
2006-10-15 21:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@webtv.net
Post by NightRaven
Jae, having been discovered as an adulteror
and subsequentely been beaten up and
humilated by Jin forcing him to leave the
country forever, has lost face. In that situation
he might feel like he *has* to commit suicide.
Honor is very big in many Asian countries.
So what did he expect? After he ran off with Sun, Jin would track him
down, and invite him over for tea? This is why I think it was
pre-planned. ...If a person is honorable, they don't go sneaking around
with someone else's wife. ...Especially when she's the daughter of some
Korean mafia(?) leader -- whose husband just so happes to work for the
guy.. ...Jon
There is a difference between Honor and Integrity. Honor tends to be
external, but not always and Integrity tends to be internal, but not always.
An example can be with organized crime, you can lose honor in the
organization by doing the right thing (not murdering etc.), but have
integrity BECAUSE you did the right thing. Jin will lose honor with Suns
father (assuming he finds out) because he did not do what he was told, but
he gained his integrity, by not becoming a murderer.

Its the same with Jae, as long as he is not caught in the act, he can keep
face (honor), but the fact that he is an adulterer, means he has no
integrity.
t***@lost.lost
2006-10-15 17:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by NightRaven
Jae, having been discovered as an adulteror and subsequentely
been beaten up and humilated by Jin forcing him to leave the
country forever, has lost face. In that situation he might feel
Yes, I agree that the Asians do favor strong punishments for those who
have brought shame to themselves or their families. Knowing that, the
scene still doesn't sit right with me. I would have expected Jae to use a
less public method of suicide than jumping off the side of his own hotel.
That type of behavior brings even more shame to his family. He could have
shot himself, hung himself, cut his wrists, any number of more private
forms of suicide.

Landing on Jin's car reeks of someone sending a message to Jin. Somehow
that final connection was left out of the scene. Perhaps cut out in
editing.

--thelostguy

Games I Play: The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted using Android Newsgroup Downloader:
.... http://www.sb-software.com/android
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Ryan Robbins
2006-10-15 21:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
Landing on Jin's car reeks of someone sending a message to Jin.
Drama. Dra-ma. D-R-A-M-A. Drama.
Richard DeLuca
2006-10-15 22:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
Post by t***@lost.lost
Landing on Jin's car reeks of someone sending a message to Jin.
Drama. Dra-ma. D-R-A-M-A. Drama.
Yes, sure made *ME* jump!
Amaranth
2006-10-15 21:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
scene still doesn't sit right with me. I would have expected Jae to use a
less public method of suicide than jumping off the side of his own hotel.
That type of behavior brings even more shame to his family. He could have
shot himself, hung himself, cut his wrists, any number of more private
forms of suicide.
Landing on Jin's car reeks of someone sending a message to Jin. Somehow
that final connection was left out of the scene. Perhaps cut out in
editing.
Thats a good point, I still am of the suicide school of thought, but you do
raise a good point that is food for thought.
tdciago
2006-10-16 01:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
Yes, I agree that the Asians do favor strong punishments for those who
have brought shame to themselves or their families. Knowing that, the
scene still doesn't sit right with me. I would have expected Jae to use a
less public method of suicide than jumping off the side of his own hotel.
That type of behavior brings even more shame to his family. He could have
shot himself, hung himself, cut his wrists, any number of more private
forms of suicide.
I really like the ambiguity of the scene exactly as shown. We're
*supposed* to wonder. But if I had to analyze it, I agree that Jae Lee
would not have committed suicide in this manner. I don't think he
would have jumped over the front of the hotel, where people were going
in and out, because he would have put other lives in jeopardy. I also
think he would have spent more time preparing his manner of death, and
maybe writing a note to his parents. It was all very, very quick. On
top of that, he had attended college in America, and seemed to have a
westernized, contemporary attitude about his life. If he was willing
to run off to America with the married daughter of a powerful Korean
businessman, with whom his family had dealings, I doubt he would have
committed suicide out of shame. He was eager enough to date Sun as a
pretense to get his parents off his back, and he had no problem with
giving her secret English lessons either.

Now here comes the mythology part, so feel free to run away screaming.
:)

I see Jae Lee as a combination of Anchises and Adonis, two lovers of
Aphrodite (aka Sun). Here's a little about each of them:

"Hephaestus, Ares, Hermes and Dionysus are the gods who loved
Aphrodite. But she was also loved by mortal men. One of them was
Anchises, king of Dardania, a region near the city of Troy. It is said
that Zeus killed him with a thunderbolt for having told, over wine,
about his affair with Aphrodite, or that he committed suicide for
unknown reasons. But it is also said that he died in exile."
( homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Aphrodite.html )

Zeus had arranged for Aphrodite to fall in love with Anchises to give
her a taste of her own medicine. It was a punishment. Sun's behavior
in "The Glass Ballerina," including the deception in her childhood, is
totally consistent with the personality of Aphrodite.

In the Adonis myth, Persephone and Aphrodite fight over him, with Zeus
settling the dispute by having Adonis spend 1/3 of the year with
Persephone (Jae's American lover?), 1/3 of the year with Aphrodite
(Sun), and 1/3 with whomever he pleased. Eventually, Adonis was killed
by a wild boar, and descended to the underworld. Aphrodite even
followed him there, but Persephone now had him for good. Aphrodite
founded a funeral cult in his honor:

"During the ancient Greek festival for Adonis, young women,
particularly those of questionable character, would plant disposable
Gardens of Adonis in baskets and pots of wheat, barley, lettuces,
fennel, and various kinds of flowers. The plants grew rapidily, but
also died quickly due to their shallow root systems, and were discarded
at the end of eight days, oftentimes with other images of the god. The
phrase has come to mean anything disposable or short-lived."
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardens_of_Adonis )

So it's interesting that Sun is the one to start a garden on the
island, which seems very important to her. (Sun to Jin: "I'd like to
stay for another 20 minutes or so... by myself. If that's all right
with you.") Jae Lee tells Sun that he doesn't want to share her any
longer, bringing in the theme of the mythological love triangle just
described. In fact, his suggestion that Sun date him as a cover for
his true love interest is another example of this triangle. Fans have
speculated about the identity of Jae Lee's American love interest. How
about Rachel Blake? She called herself Persephone when she hacked the
Hanso Foundation site.
Sean
2006-10-16 01:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by tdciago
Eventually, Adonis was killed
by a wild boar, and descended to the underworld.
Drum roll......and the worst pun of the day is......

What kind of car was Jin driving anyway, a Tar-Taurus.

Thank you, thank you

Sean
tdciago
2006-10-16 02:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean
Drum roll......and the worst pun of the day is......
What kind of car was Jin driving anyway, a Tar-Taurus.
Thank you, thank you
LOL. If only. According to Lostpedia, it was a BMW E38.

I still think Bernard should have been driving a Saturn when he met
Rose.
:)
tdciago
2006-10-16 04:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by tdciago
Zeus had arranged for Aphrodite to fall in love with Anchises to give
her a taste of her own medicine. It was a punishment.
Just to follow up on the idea of Mr. Paik punishing Sun for her lying
and deception (which seem to date back a long way), here's a possible
explanation for the pearls in Jae's hand:

Daddy Paik, knowing from past experience that Jin wouldn't kill Jae,
sent a hit man to finish the job. Just before dumping Jae off the
balcony, the hit man wraps the strand of pearls around Jae's hand.
This quirky and rather mysterious detail makes it into the newspaper
story about the "suicide," making Sun feel the full impact of
responsibility for her behavior. It's more than just a broken glass
ballerina, and Sun thinks the "suicide" is her fault. Even if she
suspects the death is a homicide, the point has been made that Jae's
blood is on her hands.

As for Jin, he gets the point that he can't just say no to the boss and
quit his job, or a similar fate awaits.
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-16 05:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by tdciago
Post by tdciago
Zeus had arranged for Aphrodite to fall in love with Anchises to give
her a taste of her own medicine. It was a punishment.
Just to follow up on the idea of Mr. Paik punishing Sun for her lying
and deception (which seem to date back a long way), here's a possible
Daddy Paik, knowing from past experience that Jin wouldn't kill Jae,
sent a hit man to finish the job. Just before dumping Jae off the
balcony, the hit man wraps the strand of pearls around Jae's hand.
And how would the hitman know of the pearl necklace and its significance, or
where to find it in such a short period of time?
tdciago
2006-10-16 06:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Robbins
And how would the hitman know of the pearl necklace and its significance, or
where to find it in such a short period of time?
Mr. Paik would've known about the pearls from walking into the hotel
room on Jae and Sun. They were lying on the bed. Paik may also have
known about the purchase if he had Jae followed, or even bugged his
suite or his phone. A demand from the hit man to produce the pearls or
else would've located them quickly enough. They were either already in
the suite with Jae, or Paik had someone steal them ahead of time to set
up the death scene.

(Assuming the homicide scenario is true. As I said before, the exact
nature of Jae's death was intentionally ambiguous. But a set-up by
Paik, including the pearls, is entirely possible.)
Ryan Robbins
2006-10-16 05:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by tdciago
I really like the ambiguity of the scene exactly as shown. We're
*supposed* to wonder. But if I had to analyze it, I agree that Jae Lee
would not have committed suicide in this manner. I don't think he
would have jumped over the front of the hotel, where people were going
in and out, because he would have put other lives in jeopardy. I also
think he would have spent more time preparing his manner of death, and
maybe writing a note to his parents. It was all very, very quick.
Most suicides are impulsive acts. And most people who commit suicide do not
leave a note.
Steven L.
2006-10-15 18:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@lost.lost
Post by rwgibson13
This is what I love about some "Lost" fans. They worry too much about
the trivial stuff. I bet it drives the producers crazy :-)
My point in starting this thread wasn't really to start a discussion of
the rotational physicals of falling bodies, the ability of a suicide
victim to hold onto a necklace, or whether Sun has the physical strength
to push Jae off a balcony.
What I do believe, is that the producers got the scene WRONG. Many other
fans appear to agree with me. It was not in Jae's character to commit
suicide. The scene would have played out much better with one of Paik's
goons pushing Jae over.
But why did we need to see that explicitly?

I also believe that Paik's goons murdered Jae because Paik, covering all
bets, didn't want to count on a reluctant Jin to do it.

But I don't have to actually see that on camera. I don't understand why
folks feel the need to see every detail explicitly. What's wrong with
an ambiguous ending to the story arc?

This reminds me of something Stanley Kubrick said once: Folks today
would have told Leonardo da Vinci to add a footnote to his painting to
explain exactly why Mona Lisa was smiling.
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: ***@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Richard DeLuca
2006-10-15 22:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven L.
But why did we need to see that explicitly?
I also believe that Paik's goons murdered Jae because Paik, covering all
bets, didn't want to count on a reluctant Jin to do it.
But I don't have to actually see that on camera. I don't understand why
folks feel the need to see every detail explicitly. What's wrong with
an ambiguous ending to the story arc?
This reminds me of something Stanley Kubrick said once: Folks today
would have told Leonardo da Vinci to add a footnote to his painting to
explain exactly why Mona Lisa was smiling.
I agree. And Kubrick also once said that 'sometimes the truth of a
thing is in the feel and look of it, not the think of it.'

Scenes like the confrontation between Jae and Jin are intended to
communicate to the feelings, not so much the intellect. Very powerful
raw imagery, beautifully done.
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