Jack's father IS ALIVE in the flashforward

[t***@lost.lost]

I listened to the dialog between Jack and the doctor again today:

Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"

Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."

I draw the following conclusions from this quote:

1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.

None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.

There are a few other things that still bother me:

1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[tenworld]

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?
--thelostguy
The Cerberus Incident,http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids,http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/
-----------------------------------------------------------
....http://www.sb-software.com/android
-----------------------------------------------------------

one obvious answer is that Jack no longer works there but is known to
the staff, and they cut him a lot of slack because they know what
happened to him (and they think he is delusional because of the
strange stories he tells when he survived a plane crash bringing his
father's body home).

maybe the coffin is empty, jack arranged the whole thing before he
flew off again and Kate (who was on the plane but has nowhere near the
backstory Jack imagined) also is humoring him

[BR Eagle]

Post by tenworld
one obvious answer is that Jack no longer works there but is known to
the staff, and they cut him a lot of slack because they know what
happened to him (and they think he is delusional because of the
strange stories he tells when he survived a plane crash bringing his
father's body home).

I got that feeling watching it. But the question is why?

Post by tenworld
maybe the coffin is empty, jack arranged the whole thing before he
flew off again and Kate (who was on the plane but has nowhere near the
backstory Jack imagined) also is humoring him

Maybe, but again, why?

[Tifer]

Post by tenworld

Post by t***@lost.lost
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?

The doctor specifically said he was the new Chief of Staff. So he
should be his boss.

Post by tenworld
one obvious answer is that Jack no longer works there but is known to
the staff, and they cut him a lot of slack because they know what
happened to him

So they let him look at X-Rays and medical records out of the kindness
of their hearts? And don't tell him flat-out "No" when he says he
wants to do the surgery? The only reason they told him No was because
he had been through enough.

Post by tenworld
maybe the coffin is empty, jack arranged the whole thing before he
flew off again and Kate (who was on the plane but has nowhere near the
backstory Jack imagined) also is humoring him

What? This show has single handedly caused more mental illness than
Alzheimers...

[Pete]

X-No-Archive: Yes

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?
--thelostguy
The Cerberus Incident,http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids,http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/
-----------------------------------------------------------
....http://www.sb-software.com/android
-----------------------------------------------------------

There are only 2 conclusions which can be drawn from this exchange:

1) Jacks dad is alive in the flash forward
2) The writers did a really poor job of crafting dialog meant to keep
us thinking that this scene was happening in the past, when in fact
Jack was meant to be wasted and delusional.

That's the main mystery of "Lost" - are all of the things we're shown
(precognition/sci-fi/monster/immortal/unbelievable/EMP/secret society)
the truth that is actually really happening on the TV show, or just
crappy writing? Is Jacks dad really alive, or was this just crappy
writing?

We'll have to wait until next season (and more crappy writing) to find
out.

[Ryan]

Post by Pete
X-No-Archive: Yes

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?
--thelostguy
The Cerberus Incident,http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids,http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/
-----------------------------------------------------------
....http://www.sb-software.com/android
-----------------------------------------------------------

1) Jacks dad is alive in the flash forward
2) The writers did a really poor job of crafting dialog meant to keep
us thinking that this scene was happening in the past, when in fact
Jack was meant to be wasted and delusional.
That's the main mystery of "Lost" - are all of the things we're shown
(precognition/sci-fi/monster/immortal/unbelievable/EMP/secret society)
the truth that is actually really happening on the TV show, or just
crappy writing? Is Jacks dad really alive, or was this just crappy
writing?
We'll have to wait until next season (and more crappy writing) to find
out.

Jack's dad is really dead. As we know, Jack is not only going through
depression, but is being heavily medicated (withouth prescription) and it is
very likely that he, at that moment, believed that truly his father was
alive.

To back up this theory, the producers, on several occasions, have cited the
fact that Jack's father is dead. This answer is not an assumption, but a
definate fact that Jack's dad is dead.

[Twisted Pete]

I believe it was to mke you think it was a flashback, when in all
actuality it was a flash-Forward. The dialogue was to confuse you.

Twisted Pete
http://community.webtv.net/lthrby2/JasonVoorheescandle

[Hunter]

Post by Twisted Pete
I believe it was to mke you think it was a flashback, when in all
actuality it was a flash-Forward. The dialogue was to confuse you.

----
That doesn't change what Ryan said. Jack's dad is dead. What you heard
was the rantings of a depressed, guilt ridden, drug addicted alcoholic
who is suicidal.

--->Hunter

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Ryan
Jack's dad is really dead. As we know, Jack is not only going through
depression, but is being heavily medicated (withouth prescription) and it

Without prescription? aside from breaking into the drug cabinet, I thought he
had a valid prescription for his original drugs. So somebody must have
prescribed them.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Hunter]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan
Jack's dad is really dead. As we know, Jack is not only going through
depression, but is being heavily medicated (withouth prescription) and it

Without prescription? aside from breaking into the drug cabinet, I thought he
had a valid prescription for his original drugs. So somebody must have
prescribed them.
--thelostguy

-----
Remember the scene in the Pharmacy? He forged the name of his father.
Often people become addicted to the drugs legitimately proscribed to
them once. When the legit source dries up, they try illegitimate, even
illegal means to get the drug. Oxycontin is a legitimate and powerful
narcotic pain killer that is very addictive. It is called the "poor
man's heroin" (which itself started life as a legitimate pain killer
about 150 years ago). Thousands of people around the world become
addicted to it every year. That is what Jack is hooked on. You
wouldn't take seriously a person ranting about his dead father being
alive if you knew he was on a heroin buzz would you? No, and the
writers know this so they have Jack hooked on a legit drug to make it
less obvious that he is a ranting drug addict since even now many
people don't know that there are powerful legit pharmaceutical drugs
that are just as addictive and powerful and mind altering as anything
you can by on the street, so the viewing public might not immediately
grasp under what degree of mind alteration Jack is under.

How it came for him to require such a drug we don't know, but It is
likely he was severely wounded somehow, perhaps during the rescue. It
is usually treated for chronic pain IIRC. That was the legit source of
the drug. Now he is over his physical injuries but he is still hooked
on the drugs.

Oh, and yes now you can get Oxycontin on the street along side Heroin,
powdered cocaine, crack cocaine, Liquid Methamphetamine (speed), etc.

--->Hunter

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Hunter
Remember the scene in the Pharmacy? He forged the name of his father.

.. and what does this prove? As far as I could tell, he didn't want the
pharmacist calling his father to verify the prescription. There are two
equally valid reasons for Jack not wanting them to verify: 1) his father is
dead, and 2) his father is alive but did not write the prescription.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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.... http://www.sb-software.com/android
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[Steven L.]

Post by Ryan

Post by Pete
X-No-Archive: Yes

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?
--thelostguy
The Cerberus Incident,http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids,http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/
-----------------------------------------------------------
....http://www.sb-software.com/android
-----------------------------------------------------------

1) Jacks dad is alive in the flash forward
2) The writers did a really poor job of crafting dialog meant to keep
us thinking that this scene was happening in the past, when in fact
Jack was meant to be wasted and delusional.
That's the main mystery of "Lost" - are all of the things we're shown
(precognition/sci-fi/monster/immortal/unbelievable/EMP/secret society)
the truth that is actually really happening on the TV show, or just
crappy writing? Is Jacks dad really alive, or was this just crappy
writing?
We'll have to wait until next season (and more crappy writing) to find
out.

Jack's dad is really dead. As we know, Jack is not only going through
depression, but is being heavily medicated (withouth prescription) and it is
very likely that he, at that moment, believed that truly his father was
alive.

I don't think even Jack believed his father was still alive. Even
Oxycodone doesn't make you psychotic or lose touch with reality. I just
think he was trying to be witty and sarcastic in his argument with the
Chief of Surgery, but he was so plastered it just came out dumb.

People who are drunk or stoned often *think* they're being clever and
witty, but to anyone who is sober they just sound stupid. Lots of folks
have tried to write poetry when they're stoned. They think it's cool
but to anyone sober it's crap.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Steven L.
I don't think even Jack believed his father was still alive. Even
Oxycodone doesn't make you psychotic or lose touch with reality. I just
think he was trying to be witty and sarcastic in his argument with the
Chief of Surgery, but he was so plastered it just came out dumb.

Perhaps... but I still don't buy it.

If this is the case, then the producers really screwed up this episode by
trying to throw in plot twists that didn't work. I can think of at least
three: 1) Jack's comments about his father, 2) Ben's orders to shoot into the
sand, 3) the flashforward that (according to Robbins) was supposed to look
like a flashback.

I still think Jack's father is alive in the flashforward. how/why this is
possible I don't know (yet).

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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-----------------------------------------------------------

[AC]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Steven L.
I don't think even Jack believed his father was still alive. Even
Oxycodone doesn't make you psychotic or lose touch with reality. I just
think he was trying to be witty and sarcastic in his argument with the
Chief of Surgery, but he was so plastered it just came out dumb.

Perhaps... but I still don't buy it.
If this is the case, then the producers really screwed up this
episode by
trying to throw in plot twists that didn't work. I can think of at least
three: 1) Jack's comments about his father, 2) Ben's orders to shoot into the
sand, 3) the flashforward that (according to Robbins) was supposed to look
like a flashback.
I still think Jack's father is alive in the flashforward. how/why this is
possible I don't know (yet).
--thelostguy

I read the scene as Jacks dad is alive (wow!!) but others assume Jack
is off his head. But there is nothing else in these flashes to help
prove it either way.

Either the scene is poorly done or its deliberatly ambigious. If its
deliberate, then its a pretty cheap trick and just plain weak for a
season cliff hanger.

One of the things I have noticed over the course of the 3 seasons of
Lost is that offen the simplest answer is the case. So......

Jacks dad alive after they escape the island: too complex
Its an alternate flash back before the crash: too complex
Write the comments off as the ramblings of a Junkie: easy

Despite all that we see and theorise over, I reckon that, sadly, the
answer to Jacks comments will just be the ramblings of a junkie. I
want it to be more, but if I had to bet, I'd put my money on that.

AC

[Bev Vincent]

Ramblings:

Jack saw his father on the island. He's hopped up on booze and drugs. He
tried to pass off a scrip with his father's signature. He's either in denial
or else he's convinced himself that his father is still alive. He'd have
done better to fake the signature of someone else--someone living--than risk
getting caught using the name of someone known to be unable to write a
signature.

Here's a question: Does anyone else know Jack's father is dead? Jack got the
call and went to Australia, but did he tell anyone why he was going? Jack
claimed the body and tried to have it shipped back (did he ever get it
aboard the plane? We don't know), but it's possible that news of Christian
Shepherd's death did not make it to America. Maybe everyone else thinks
Shepherd-the-elder is gone walkabout for a while and could return at any
time.

If Jack believes it--for whatever reason--and no one has any reason to
believe otherwise, that could explain their behavior in the FF.

[tdciago]

Post by Bev Vincent
Here's a question: Does anyone else know Jack's father is dead? Jack got the
call and went to Australia, but did he tell anyone why he was going? Jack
claimed the body and tried to have it shipped back (did he ever get it
aboard the plane? We don't know), but it's possible that news of Christian
Shepherd's death did not make it to America. Maybe everyone else thinks
Shepherd-the-elder is gone walkabout for a while and could return at any
time.
If Jack believes it--for whatever reason--and no one has any reason to
believe otherwise, that could explain their behavior in the FF.

This would explain things nicely, but I think there were too many
people in Australia who had detailed information on Christian, and
what happened to him. The hotel would have had basic information, the
morgue certainly would have obtained detailed information from Jack,
and I assume there was some involvement with a funeral home, preparing
the body and providing the casket. Even if we suspect that Oceanic
employees are connected to DHARMA, and would cover up the death, there
are just too many loose ends out there. Certainly Jack would have
contacted his mother to let her know that Christian was dead, and that
he was bringing the body home on flight 815. A funeral home in L.A.
would have been set to meet the flight.

[Ryan Robbins]

I read the scene as Jacks dad is alive (wow!!) but others assume Jack is
off his head. But there is nothing else in these flashes to help prove it
either way.

Other than the facts we never see Jack's father and we find out at the end
that the flashbacks were actually flash-forwards...

Either the scene is poorly done or its deliberatly ambigious. If its
deliberate, then its a pretty cheap trick and just plain weak for a season
cliff hanger.

There is no cliffhanger regarding Jack's father. Jack's father is dead.

[Hunter]

Post by Steven L.

Post by Ryan

Post by Pete
X-No-Archive: Yes

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?
--thelostguy
The Cerberus Incident,http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids,http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/
-----------------------------------------------------------
....http://www.sb-software.com/android
-----------------------------------------------------------

1) Jacks dad is alive in the flash forward
2) The writers did a really poor job of crafting dialog meant to keep
us thinking that this scene was happening in the past, when in fact
Jack was meant to be wasted and delusional.
That's the main mystery of "Lost" - are all of the things we're shown
(precognition/sci-fi/monster/immortal/unbelievable/EMP/secret society)
the truth that is actually really happening on the TV show, or just
crappy writing? Is Jacks dad really alive, or was this just crappy
writing?
We'll have to wait until next season (and more crappy writing) to find
out.

Jack's dad is really dead. As we know, Jack is not only going through
depression, but is being heavily medicated (withouth prescription) and it is
very likely that he, at that moment, believed that truly his father was
alive.

I don't think even Jack believed his father was still alive. Even
Oxycodone doesn't make you psychotic or lose touch with reality. I just
think he was trying to be witty and sarcastic in his argument with the
Chief of Surgery, but he was so plastered it just came out dumb.
People who are drunk or stoned often *think* they're being clever and
witty, but to anyone who is sober they just sound stupid. Lots of folks
have tried to write poetry when they're stoned. They think it's cool
but to anyone sober it's crap.

----
Was it Oxycodone or Oxycotin Jack is hooked on? I know there is a
legitimate difference. Like Oxycotin, Oxycodone is usually used for
chronic pain (for a sever injury he will get when they are truly
rescued?). Either way, Jack is under the influence of a perception
altering drug.

--->Hunter

[Hunter]

Post by Pete
X-No-Archive: Yes

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?
--thelostguy
The Cerberus Incident,http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids,http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/
-----------------------------------------------------------
....http://www.sb-software.com/android
-----------------------------------------------------------

1) Jacks dad is alive in the flash forward
2) The writers did a really poor job of crafting dialog meant to keep
us thinking that this scene was happening in the past, when in fact
Jack was meant to be wasted and delusional.
That's the main mystery of "Lost" - are all of the things we're shown
(precognition/sci-fi/monster/immortal/unbelievable/EMP/secret society)
the truth that is actually really happening on the TV show, or just
crappy writing? Is Jacks dad really alive, or was this just crappy
writing?
We'll have to wait until next season (and more crappy writing) to find
out.

----
You know I think people are using the "crappy writing" argument for
anything the writers don't make sh*t on your face obvious and straight
and you would actually have to puzzle over. Perish the thought that
the writers want to maintain some mystery about what is going to
happen essentially three years (for the islanders about three months)
in the future, to maintain mystery. Just because you can't instantly
figure out what is exactly going on now makes it crappy writing. It
would be crappy writing if in the end and we look back on things if
they don't hang together and see the pattern that wasn't so obvious at
the time.

--->Hunter

[V&S]

Where is the body of Jacks dad?

[Bev Vincent]

Post by V&S
Where is the body of Jacks dad?

There's a possibility it never made it on the plane. Jack wasn't making much
headway convincing the Oceanic attendant.

[alooo]

Post by Bev Vincent

Post by V&S
Where is the body of Jacks dad?

There's a possibility it never made it on the plane. Jack wasn't making much
headway convincing the Oceanic attendant.

So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

[Bev Vincent]

Post by alooo

Post by Bev Vincent

Post by V&S
Where is the body of Jacks dad?

There's a possibility it never made it on the plane. Jack wasn't making much
headway convincing the Oceanic attendant.

So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

Or the coffin was as much an illusion as his father was.

[TNKev]

Post by alooo

Post by Bev Vincent

Post by V&S
Where is the body of Jacks dad?

There's a possibility it never made it on the plane. Jack wasn't making much
headway convincing the Oceanic attendant.

So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

When my Grandmother died in Florida my father went to get her and take
her to Wisconsin for her burial. the morgue was late getting her to the
airport and they refused to put her on the plane. my Father explained
that her funeral was to be that afternoon, the best they would do is
fly her casket to Wisconsin and they had the funeral with an empty
casket she arrived the next day.
I beleive the same thing happened to Jack.

[Fred Ellis]

Post by TNKev

Post by alooo

Post by Bev Vincent

Post by V&S
Where is the body of Jacks dad?

There's a possibility it never made it on the plane. Jack wasn't making much
headway convincing the Oceanic attendant.

So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

When my Grandmother died in Florida my father went to get her and take
her to Wisconsin for her burial. the morgue was late getting her to the
airport and they refused to put her on the plane. my Father explained
that her funeral was to be that afternoon, the best they would do is
fly her casket to Wisconsin and they had the funeral with an empty
casket she arrived the next day.
I believe the same thing happened to Jack.

At last someone in this NG has come up with a plausible explanation for
the body not being in the casket using a real world example. Now at
least that makes sense. Now I can accept that as a good reason for the
body being not there.


Fred Ellis

[alooo]

Post by Fred Ellis

Post by TNKev

Post by alooo
So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

When my Grandmother died in Florida my father went to get her and take
her to Wisconsin for her burial. the morgue was late getting her to the
airport and they refused to put her on the plane. my Father explained
that her funeral was to be that afternoon, the best they would do is
fly her casket to Wisconsin and they had the funeral with an empty
casket she arrived the next day.
I believe the same thing happened to Jack.

At last someone in this NG has come up with a plausible explanation for
the body not being in the casket using a real world example. Now at
least that makes sense. Now I can accept that as a good reason for the
body being not there.

Doesn't really make sense to me. Isn't the purpose of the casket to contain
the body? So why fly a casket aross the country instead of purchasing one
locally? Or, if her body had already been inside the casket, why not just
use a different casket for the service? Finally, how exactly was her body
transported?

[TNKev]

Post by alooo

Post by Fred Ellis

Post by TNKev

Post by alooo
So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

When my Grandmother died in Florida my father went to get her and
take her to Wisconsin for her burial. the morgue was late getting
her to the airport and they refused to put her on the plane. my
Father explained that her funeral was to be that afternoon, the
best they would do is fly her casket to Wisconsin and they had the
funeral with an empty casket she arrived the next day.
I believe the same thing happened to Jack.

At last someone in this NG has come up with a plausible explanation
for the body not being in the casket using a real world example. Now at
least that makes sense. Now I can accept that as a good
reason for the body being not there.

Doesn't really make sense to me. Isn't the purpose of the casket to
contain the body?

on an airplane they dont just put a body in a casket and ship it *if*
a body is in a casket at all it is still in a well sealed body bag. it can't
be in a manner that it can fall out of the casket with some air turbulance.
have you ever watched that show on A&E about the people that run the
mortuary? they have big refridgerators at the airport for storing bodies
and most of the time they are bagged and inside a shipping box made of
wood.

Post by alooo
So why fly a casket aross the country instead of
purchasing one locally?

she bought her casket locally,she lived in Florida and somebody sold
it to her. it wouldn't surprise me if she bought it from a door to
door casket salesman in the trailor park she lived in.

Post by alooo
Or, if her body had already been inside the
casket, why not just use a different casket for the service?

that was the casket she wanted,I guess my father had a little respect for
his mother.

Post by alooo
Finally,
how exactly was her body transported?

on the airplane in a box.

[Ryan Robbins]

Post by TNKev

Post by alooo

Post by Bev Vincent

Post by V&S
Where is the body of Jacks dad?

There's a possibility it never made it on the plane. Jack wasn't making much
headway convincing the Oceanic attendant.

So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

When my Grandmother died in Florida my father went to get her and take
her to Wisconsin for her burial. the morgue was late getting her to the
airport and they refused to put her on the plane. my Father explained
that her funeral was to be that afternoon, the best they would do is
fly her casket to Wisconsin and they had the funeral with an empty
casket she arrived the next day.
I beleive the same thing happened to Jack.

So why would be bother to open the casket when he found it on the island
near the freshwater?

[Bev Vincent]

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by TNKev

Post by alooo

Post by Bev Vincent

Post by V&S
Where is the body of Jacks dad?

There's a possibility it never made it on the plane. Jack wasn't making much
headway convincing the Oceanic attendant.

So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

When my Grandmother died in Florida my father went to get her and take
her to Wisconsin for her burial. the morgue was late getting her to the
airport and they refused to put her on the plane. my Father explained
that her funeral was to be that afternoon, the best they would do is
fly her casket to Wisconsin and they had the funeral with an empty
casket she arrived the next day.
I beleive the same thing happened to Jack.

So why would be bother to open the casket when he found it on the island
near the freshwater?

Same reason people insist on touching a wall that's marked "Wet paint"? ;)

[TNKev]

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by TNKev

Post by alooo

Post by Bev Vincent

Post by V&S
Where is the body of Jacks dad?

There's a possibility it never made it on the plane. Jack wasn't making much
headway convincing the Oceanic attendant.

So they took the body out of the coffin before putting it on the plane?

When my Grandmother died in Florida my father went to get her and
take her to Wisconsin for her burial. the morgue was late getting
her to the airport and they refused to put her on the plane. my
Father explained that her funeral was to be that afternoon, the best
they would do is fly her casket to Wisconsin and they had the
funeral with an empty casket she arrived the next day.
I beleive the same thing happened to Jack.

So why would be bother to open the casket when he found it on the
island near the freshwater?

so why are discussing season 1? I don't recall the exact goings on,
but I do remember Jack hadn't slept in days and he was seeing his
dad walking around he followed him and found some wreckage
ther was a casket and he was rambling something and beating
on the casket and I can't remember wether it fell over and opened
and there was nothing in it or if he just opened it and I can't remember
his reaction at finding it empty.
my bet is that something that was supposed to happen didn't happen
because of human intervention, and in the future Jack's dad didn't die.
like Desmond stopping Charlie's death so many times if he had not
stopped the lighting from hitting him the first time then he wouldn't
have been there to flip the switch in the looking glass.

[Kevin Reilly]

Post by t***@lost.lost
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.

There is at least one other possibility. Sometime between the satellite
phone call and the time of the flash-forward, it may be revealed that
Christian Shephard was NOT actually Jack's father, and that Jack's real
father -- whoever it may be -- is alive and well and working in the
hospital. (And also has a drink problem!)

Not a very likely scenario but perfectly logical given the few facts we
know. All of which proves how dangerous it is to try drawing solid
conclusions based solely on those little fish-biscuity morsels of
information the producers choose to drip-feed us with.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Kevin Reilly
There is at least one other possibility. Sometime between the satellite
phone call and the time of the flash-forward, it may be revealed that
Christian Shephard was NOT actually Jack's father, and that Jack's real
father -- whoever it may be -- is alive and well and working in the
hospital. (And also has a drink problem!)

I hadn't thought of this one, but it's certainly a possibility. It'd have to
be a pretty big coincidence that Jack's 'real father' works in the same
hospital as his fake father. That's soap opera material, not Lost material.
:)

Can anyone with a good memory tell me if we ever saw Christian Shephard in
the coffin before Jack boarded? Is it possible that another body was in the
coffin and misidentified as Christian Shephard?

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[dnrapp]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Kevin Reilly
There is at least one other possibility. Sometime between the satellite
phone call and the time of the flash-forward, it may be revealed that
Christian Shephard was NOT actually Jack's father, and that Jack's real
father -- whoever it may be -- is alive and well and working in the
hospital. (And also has a drink problem!)

I hadn't thought of this one, but it's certainly a possibility. It'd have to
be a pretty big coincidence that Jack's 'real father' works in the same
hospital as his fake father. That's soap opera material, not Lost material.
:)
Can anyone with a good memory tell me if we ever saw Christian Shephard in
the coffin before Jack boarded? Is it possible that another body was in the
coffin and misidentified as Christian Shephard?
--thelostguy

We saw Jack ID him in the body bag in Australia. And we saw Jack
having an a hard time getting the ticket agent to let his dad's coffin
on the plane.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by dnrapp
We saw Jack ID him in the body bag in Australia. And we saw Jack
having an a hard time getting the ticket agent to let his dad's coffin
on the plane.

But did we actually see the body? Is there any chance the body was damaged
beyond recognition and Jack ID'd him through clothing, jewelry, tattoo, etc.
[I certainly hope not as it would be lame, but it is a typical TV plot for a
body to be misidentified]

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Ryan Robbins]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by dnrapp
We saw Jack ID him in the body bag in Australia. And we saw Jack
having an a hard time getting the ticket agent to let his dad's coffin
on the plane.

But did we actually see the body? Is there any chance the body was damaged
beyond recognition and Jack ID'd him through clothing, jewelry, tattoo, etc.
[I certainly hope not as it would be lame, but it is a typical TV plot for a
body to be misidentified]

What part of "we saw Jack ID him" do you not understand?

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Ryan Robbins
What part of "we saw Jack ID him" do you not understand?

Perhaps if you can find someone to read my post and explain it to you, you
will see that I asked whether WE THE AUDIENCE saw the body, and whether it
was possible that Jack MISIDENTIFIED the body.

Thanks to tdciago for properly answering the question and providing a helpful
screen shot.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Tifer]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan Robbins
What part of "we saw Jack ID him" do you not understand?

Perhaps if you can find someone to read my post and explain it to you, you
will see that I asked whether WE THE AUDIENCE saw the body, and whether it
was possible that Jack MISIDENTIFIED the body.
Thanks to tdciago for properly answering the question and providing a helpful

If Jack couldn't identify him, how would it have helped if we saw him?

[r***@bestweb.net]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan Robbins
What part of "we saw Jack ID him" do you not understand?

Perhaps if you can find someone to read my post and explain it to you, you
will see that I asked whether WE THE AUDIENCE saw the body, and whether it
was possible that Jack MISIDENTIFIED the body.

And it's always possible that he DISidentified the body, i.e. lied
about whose it was.

[Todd]

Post by r***@bestweb.net

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan Robbins
What part of "we saw Jack ID him" do you not understand?

Perhaps if you can find someone to read my post and explain it to you, you
will see that I asked whether WE THE AUDIENCE saw the body, and whether it
was possible that Jack MISIDENTIFIED the body.

And it's always possible that he DISidentified the body, i.e. lied
about whose it was.

One has to wonder whether the asylum you're in has too lenient rules
about access to the computer in the dayroom.

Todd

[tdciago]

Post by t***@lost.lost
But did we actually see the body?

Yes.

Screencap: http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-47-510.html

Post by t***@lost.lost
Is there any chance the body was damaged
beyond recognition and Jack ID'd him through clothing, jewelry, tattoo, etc.

No.

[AC]

Post by Kevin Reilly

Post by t***@lost.lost
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead
father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.

There is at least one other possibility. Sometime between the
satellite phone call and the time of the flash-forward, it may be
revealed that Christian Shephard was NOT actually Jack's father, and
that Jack's real father -- whoever it may be -- is alive and well
and working in the hospital. (And also has a drink problem!)
Not a very likely scenario but perfectly logical given the few facts
we know. All of which proves how dangerous it is to try drawing
solid conclusions based solely on those little fish-biscuity morsels
of information the producers choose to drip-feed us with.

I dont buy it, but I like the thinking.................

Hold on.

Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads? Isnt there
furtility stuff going on on the island? Could Jacks Dad have had some
involvement in it in the past. Perhaps Jacks dad adopted Jack. To
protect him. Maybe Jacks Dad worked on the island years ago. Then Jack
might have been born there.

So Jack finds this out and finds out that his real father is some one
else. (who would I suppose would also need to be a drunk doctor, which
is possible because he would also need to be a DARMA guy) Jack finds
him and it goes to shit, agian. So Jack goes off the rails.

It sorta works, no?

Or maybe thats all bollocks. :)

AC

[Brian Attwood]

Post by AC

Post by Kevin Reilly

Post by t***@lost.lost
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.

There is at least one other possibility. Sometime between the
satellite phone call and the time of the flash-forward, it may be
revealed that Christian Shephard was NOT actually Jack's father, and
that Jack's real father -- whoever it may be -- is alive and well
and working in the hospital. (And also has a drink problem!)
Not a very likely scenario but perfectly logical given the few facts
we know. All of which proves how dangerous it is to try drawing
solid conclusions based solely on those little fish-biscuity morsels
of information the producers choose to drip-feed us with.

I dont buy it, but I like the thinking.................
Hold on.
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads?

Bill Clinton?

[Tifer]

Post by AC
I dont buy it, but I like the thinking.................
Hold on.
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads? Isnt there
furtility stuff going on on the island? Could Jacks Dad have had some
involvement in it in the past. Perhaps Jacks dad adopted Jack. To
protect him. Maybe Jacks Dad worked on the island years ago. Then Jack
might have been born there.
So Jack finds this out and finds out that his real father is some one
else. (who would I suppose would also need to be a drunk doctor, which
is possible because he would also need to be a DARMA guy) Jack finds
him and it goes to shit, agian. So Jack goes off the rails.
It sorta works, no?

'It' works if your intention was coming up with the most convoluted
theory possible.

[AC]

Post by Tifer

Post by AC
I dont buy it, but I like the thinking.................
Hold on.
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads? Isnt there
furtility stuff going on on the island? Could Jacks Dad have had some
involvement in it in the past. Perhaps Jacks dad adopted Jack. To
protect him. Maybe Jacks Dad worked on the island years ago. Then Jack
might have been born there.
So Jack finds this out and finds out that his real father is some one
else. (who would I suppose would also need to be a drunk doctor, which
is possible because he would also need to be a DARMA guy) Jack finds
him and it goes to shit, agian. So Jack goes off the rails.
It sorta works, no?

'It' works if your intention was coming up with the most convoluted
theory possible.

Whats not convoluted about Lost?

AC

[Ryan Robbins]

Post by AC
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads?

Our current president has based just about his entire presidency on a lie.

[Running Scissors]

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by AC
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads?

Our current president has based just about his entire presidency on a lie.

I'm no big fan of President Bush's but that is a stupid, ignorant
thing to say.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Running Scissors
I'm no big fan of President Bush's but that is a stupid, ignorant
thing to say.

That's the problem with some of the Lefties out there. They hate Bush so much
that *everything* (even fictional TV shows) needs to be about him.

I despised Clinton, but not to the point where it consumed my life....

..and I'm none too fond of Bush anymore either...

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Ryan Robbins]

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by AC
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads?

Our current president has based just about his entire presidency on a lie.

I'm no big fan of President Bush's but that is a stupid, ignorant thing to
say.

So why are we in Iraq?

Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and he had ties with al-Qaida.

No, wait. We're in Iraq to bring freedom to the Iraqi people.

No, no. We're taking on al-Qaida.

...

[Running Scissors]

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by AC
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads?

Our current president has based just about his entire presidency on a lie.

I'm no big fan of President Bush's but that is a stupid, ignorant thing to
say.

So why are we in Iraq?
Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and he had ties with al-Qaida.
No, wait. We're in Iraq to bring freedom to the Iraqi people.
No, no. We're taking on al-Qaida.
...

:::rolling eyes:::

[Ryan Robbins]

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by AC
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads?

Our current president has based just about his entire presidency on a lie.

I'm no big fan of President Bush's but that is a stupid, ignorant thing
to say.

So why are we in Iraq?
Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and he had ties with al-Qaida.
No, wait. We're in Iraq to bring freedom to the Iraqi people.
No, no. We're taking on al-Qaida.
...

Roll them all you want. It doesn't change the fact that Bush has based all
but the first eight months of his presidency on this notion that he needed
us to invade Iraq to fight terrorism. The result of his foolishness was the
opposite: He opened the doors to that country for terrorists to thrive. His
Great Lie has resulted in thousands of needless deaths without any benefit.

[Running Scissors]

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by AC
Isnt there some sort of president for fake or lieing Dads?

Our current president has based just about his entire presidency on a lie.

I'm no big fan of President Bush's but that is a stupid, ignorant thing
to say.

So why are we in Iraq?
Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and he had ties with al-Qaida.
No, wait. We're in Iraq to bring freedom to the Iraqi people.
No, no. We're taking on al-Qaida.
...

Roll them all you want. It doesn't change the fact that Bush has based all
but the first eight months of his presidency on this notion that he needed
us to invade Iraq to fight terrorism. The result of his foolishness was the
opposite: He opened the doors to that country for terrorists to thrive. His
Great Lie has resulted in thousands of needless deaths without any benefit.

Doesn't surprise me you would be this simplistic. You do it all the
time around here. You reduce everything to black and white and
ridicule gray area discussion/speculation. You sound like a teenager,
Ryan, one with more than a few brain cells but way too much confidence
in them. Hopefully, you'll grow up some day.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Ryan Robbins
opposite: He opened the doors to that country for terrorists to thrive. His
Great Lie has resulted in thousands of needless deaths without any benefit.

Sure, Bush is now responsible for Islamic Terrorism.

I take it then Robbins that you're reversing your position on time travel,
and Bush is in fact a time traveler -- he's responsible for the Koran, the
rise of islamic fundamentalism, Jimmy Carter's failure to deal with Iran, the
Clinton administration's repeated failures dealing with Al Qaeda, etc?

Maybe Bush keeps his timee machine next to his hurricane generator.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[alooo]

Post by t***@lost.lost
So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.

That would be a more accurate title for this thread.


I've been arguing heavily that his father could be alive but I think the
evidence favors that he's not alive.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by alooo
I've been arguing heavily that his father could be alive but I think the
evidence favors that he's not alive.

I think he is alive. The producers dropped us this hint specifically in the
dialog.

If they'd wanted us to know he was dead, then Jack could have said something
like "dig my father up and let's see who's drunker". That would have been no
more or less callous than asking the Doctor to bring his dead father 'down
here'.

You have to look at the way the episode was set up. First we see Jack in the
drug store trying to use his father's perscription. We all say to ourselves:
"look at that bastard Jack trying to use his dead father's name to get
drugs." Then a bit later, we see that Jack believes his father is alive. It's
all meant to work together. The producers wanted us to see it this way.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Ryan Robbins]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by alooo
I've been arguing heavily that his father could be alive but I think the
evidence favors that he's not alive.

I think he is alive. The producers dropped us this hint specifically in the
dialog.

I think most "Lost" fans are not anywhere near as smart as the news media
makes them out to be.

Post by t***@lost.lost
If they'd wanted us to know he was dead, then Jack could have said something
like "dig my father up and let's see who's drunker".

That would have spoiled the revelation at the end of the episiode that we
were seeing flash-forwards, not flashbacks.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Ryan Robbins
That would have spoiled the revelation at the end of the episiode that we
were seeing flash-forwards, not flashbacks.

You mean you didn't realize this from the beginning??? Sheesh Ryan I gave you
more credit that this...

Was this honestly meant to be a big revelation at the end of the ep???? Did
anyone (aside from Robbins) fall for thinking it was a flashback for the
whole episode?

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Ryan Robbins]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan Robbins
That would have spoiled the revelation at the end of the episiode that we
were seeing flash-forwards, not flashbacks.

You mean you didn't realize this from the beginning??? Sheesh Ryan I gave you
more credit that this...
Was this honestly meant to be a big revelation at the end of the ep???? Did
anyone (aside from Robbins) fall for thinking it was a flashback for the
whole episode?

I knew it wasn't a flashback. But millions of other viewers didn't realize
it until Jack and Kate met at the airport.

[Todd]

On Thu, 31 May 2007 02:50:27 GMT, "Ryan Robbins"

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan Robbins
That would have spoiled the revelation at the end of the episiode that we
were seeing flash-forwards, not flashbacks.

You mean you didn't realize this from the beginning??? Sheesh Ryan I gave you
more credit that this...
Was this honestly meant to be a big revelation at the end of the ep???? Did
anyone (aside from Robbins) fall for thinking it was a flashback for the
whole episode?

I knew it wasn't a flashback. But millions of other viewers didn't realize
it until Jack and Kate met at the airport.

How did you know and when did you know it?

Todd

[Bev Vincent]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan Robbins
That would have spoiled the revelation at the end of the episiode that we
were seeing flash-forwards, not flashbacks.

You mean you didn't realize this from the beginning??? Sheesh Ryan I gave you
more credit that this...
Was this honestly meant to be a big revelation at the end of the ep???? Did
anyone (aside from Robbins) fall for thinking it was a flashback for the
whole episode?

I did. I was trying to figure out how Kate and Jack could possibly have
known each other before the crash when she showed up at the airport. I'm not
ashamed to say I fell for it.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Bev Vincent
I did. I was trying to figure out how Kate and Jack could possibly have
known each other before the crash when she showed up at the airport. I'm not
ashamed to say I fell for it.

I think it was the beard that set me off knowing it was a flashforward from
the start -- he just looked older to me and then the pieces immediately fell
into place (on an Oceanic flight that doesn't crash, etc)

But I can certainly see some people falling for it.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[alooo]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan Robbins
That would have spoiled the revelation at the end of the episiode that we
were seeing flash-forwards, not flashbacks.

You mean you didn't realize this from the beginning??? Sheesh Ryan I gave you
more credit that this...
Was this honestly meant to be a big revelation at the end of the ep???? Did
anyone (aside from Robbins) fall for thinking it was a flashback for the
whole episode?

I did. And your tone sounds incredulous that anybody would believe that
after three years of flashbacks we were seeing another flashback. Even
knowing now that it was a flash forward I can't think of any clues that
should have tipped anybody off that it was a flash forward (other than maybe
the Razr phone). So I'm curious why you put three question marks at the end
of "you didn't realize this from the beginning?"

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by alooo
the Razr phone). So I'm curious why you put three question marks at the end
of "you didn't realize this from the beginning?"

I'm just surprised. I had taken it for granted as it appeared obvious to me
from the start. I'm not trying to be arrogant here (at least no more so than
my usual self) -- there must have been some clue that tipped me off right
from the start. I think it was the beard that IMO made Jack look "older" in
the flashforward.

I also suspected all along that he was trying to call Kate, and that it was
her who met him at the end.

Now I'm actually a bit bummed that I didn't fall for it; it would have been
fun to be surprised at the end like that.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[alooo]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by alooo
the Razr phone). So I'm curious why you put three question marks at the end
of "you didn't realize this from the beginning?"

I'm just surprised. I had taken it for granted as it appeared obvious to me
from the start. I'm not trying to be arrogant here (at least no more so than
my usual self) -- there must have been some clue that tipped me off right
from the start. I think it was the beard that IMO made Jack look "older" in
the flashforward.

The fact that he had a beard made you decide they were suddenly, after three
years, doing a flash forward? They didn't do anything else to age him- he
simply had a beard. Maybe you're psychic because I don't see why that should
have been a giveaway to anybody that this was the future.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by alooo
The fact that he had a beard made you decide they were suddenly, after three
years, doing a flash forward? They didn't do anything else to age him- he

All it did was make him look 'older' to me. If you assume that he is older,
then you *must* assume that it is a flashforward.

I'm not saying I made the right observation when I thought he looked older,
but that was the observation that I made.

With the exception of the dialog surrounding Jack's father (which left me
genuinely confused during the episode), everything is consistent with a
flashforward, so I never assumed otherwise.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[r***@bestweb.net]

Post by alooo
The fact that he had a beard made you decide they were suddenly, after three
years, doing a flash forward? They didn't do anything else to age him- he
simply had a beard. Maybe you're psychic because I don't see why that should
have been a giveaway to anybody that this was the future.

It worked for me. I thought about the time needed to grow it, then
remembered a lot of his past fairly well blocked out such that it'd've
been unusual to have such a beard growth in the middle of it and not
on either end, and while conceding the possibility it might've gone
back several years -- I don't remember whether a tattoo showed -- I
thought a flashforward most likely.

Plus, I thought they were DUE for a flashforward. I'd figured for
some time that they'd get around to them eventually, and here we are
60% of the way thru the show's run. I anticipated the payoff of the
plot coming only after these people leave Craphole, and figured
flashforwards would be a good way to introduce the coming elements.

When the attendant handed Jack the newspaper folded to that page,
hint, hint, that sealed it.

Robert

[Steven L.]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Ryan Robbins
That would have spoiled the revelation at the end of the episiode that we
were seeing flash-forwards, not flashbacks.

You mean you didn't realize this from the beginning??? Sheesh Ryan I gave you
more credit that this...
Was this honestly meant to be a big revelation at the end of the ep???? Did
anyone (aside from Robbins) fall for thinking it was a flashback for the
whole episode?

I know quite a few people who were fooled, including some who posted
here and some who posted to TheFuselage.com

Until Kate gets out of her car at the very end, these fans tended to
assume that the time frame was just after Jack's divorce from Sarah,
when he must have been pretty depressed over being lonely again.

[Kevin Reilly]

Post by Steven L.
Until Kate gets out of her car at the very end, these fans tended to
assume that the time frame was just after Jack's divorce from Sarah,
when he must have been pretty depressed over being lonely again.

I blame all the timeline-twisting, alternate theory fans on this
newsgroup for the fact that I didn't "get it" until Kate's appearance.

The first thing I noticed in the episode was the cell phone anachronism,
which I pointed out to my girlfriend along with my belief that such an
obvious "error" couldn't be anything other than deliberate.

I then spent the next 45 minutes trying to shoe-horn Desmond's time
trip, conspiracy theories, doppelgangers, "bad twins" and all sorts of
pseudoscientific codswallop into an overall theory of what the hell was
going on, and in the process completely missed the blindingly obvious.

I honestly believe if it wasn't for the discussions on this newsgroup
buzzing around my cranium I'd have used Occam's razor (thanks to Jack's
Razr!) and pegged the thing as a flash-forward quite early, thereby
earning nerd Brownie points from my missus.

As it was, I just sounded like a rambling idiot. Thanks a lot, guys.

[alooo]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by alooo
I've been arguing heavily that his father could be alive but I think the
evidence favors that he's not alive.

I think he is alive. The producers dropped us this hint specifically in the
dialog.
If they'd wanted us to know he was dead, then Jack could have said something
like "dig my father up and let's see who's drunker". That would have been no
more or less callous than asking the Doctor to bring his dead father 'down
here'.

If they'd worded it that way it would have completely given away that this
was a flash forward. But I agree that the choice of phrasing is curious and
it certainly was not the best decision if they were simply trying to divert
attention from the future aspect. Jack could have said, "Give me an alcohol
test and if I'm drunker than my father, then fire me." It wouldn't have
given away the flash forward and wouldn't have sounded like a strange thing
for a drunk guy to say. By having Jack say what he did, I think the writers
were deliberately ambiguous. They either want us to believe Jack's dad is
alive or they were giving us the first indication that future Jack isn't
just drunk, he's looney tunes.

Having said all that, if you compare the evidence, on one side you've got
Jack actually seeing his father's body in the morgue and Juliet having a
copy of his autopsy report. That's dead. In the future he's referring to his
father as if he's alive, which could only be true if Desmond (or somebody
else) is actually altering time somehow. So the evidence strongly favors
that his father is dead in the flash forward.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by alooo
and Juliet having a
copy of his autopsy report. That's dead. In the future he's referring to

ah yes, based upon evidence from the 'others', who constantly try to
manipulate (and occasionally outright lie to) the Losties. But I agree on the
other point -- that Jack saw his father and (thanks to tdciago's screen shot)
we saw his body in the coffin as well.

As counter-evidence, we do have Jack seeing his father on the Island in S1,
don't we?

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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[Bev Vincent]

Post by t***@lost.lost
As counter-evidence, we do have Jack seeing his father on the Island in S1,
don't we?

Ben saw his mother -- she's dead. People on the island have visions--that's
pretty much a given.

[SerenaK]

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs

I agree with you that in whatever the flash-forward was, it's meant to
appear that Jack's father is alive.

But for some reason I took the "get him down here" a little differently, as
in "get him here to this location", let's say this hospital downtown or
whatever. As in "get him here". But the idea of him being "upstairs" is
equally valid, if maybe not a little moreso, now that I think of it.

[tenworld]

Post by SerenaK

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get

him

Post by t***@lost.lost
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs

I agree with you that in whatever the flash-forward was, it's meant to
appear that Jack's father is alive.
But for some reason I took the "get him down here" a little differently, as
in "get him here to this location", let's say this hospital downtown or
whatever. As in "get him here". But the idea of him being "upstairs" is
equally valid, if maybe not a little moreso, now that I think of it.

note that the Doctor Jack addressed the comment did not react to Jack
demanding he get his father down there. Like saying "you'll be sorry
if I have to get your dad involved" or something stronger like "He
isnt chief here anymore!"

[speculator]

X-No-Archive:yes

Or he is simply humoring a delusional Jack. But if that's the case, I
don't think the actor really pulled it off in a credible way.

I'm gonna go with the premise that Christian is indeed dead and the
behavior of others toward Jack (Sarah, the other doctor, and Kate) is
one born more out of pity for what he has become: a broken, delusional
man who is round-the-bend. That would explain most of the tolerance of
him we see in the hospital, Sarah's questioning about his drinking,
and also explain Kate's reluctance to meet him and her resistance to
Jack's obsession about going back to the island. Kate just wants to
move on, as does Sarah.

-spec

Post by tenworld

Post by SerenaK

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get

him

Post by t***@lost.lost
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs

I agree with you that in whatever the flash-forward was, it's meant to
appear that Jack's father is alive.
But for some reason I took the "get him down here" a little differently, as
in "get him here to this location", let's say this hospital downtown or
whatever. As in "get him here". But the idea of him being "upstairs" is
equally valid, if maybe not a little moreso, now that I think of it.

note that the Doctor Jack addressed the comment did not react to Jack
demanding he get his father down there. Like saying "you'll be sorry
if I have to get your dad involved" or something stronger like "He
isnt chief here anymore!"- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by SerenaK
But for some reason I took the "get him down here" a little differently, as
in "get him here to this location", let's say this hospital downtown or
whatever. As in "get him here". But the idea of him being "upstairs" is
equally valid, if maybe not a little moreso, now that I think of it.

I agree with you, there's no reason to conclude that he is physically "up"
from Jack -- I often misused the expression "down here". So Jack's father
could be in anywhere from this hospital across town to the office down the
hall....

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[e***@yahoo.com]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by SerenaK
But for some reason I took the "get him down here" a little differently, as
in "get him here to this location", let's say this hospital downtown or
whatever. As in "get him here". But the idea of him being "upstairs" is
equally valid, if maybe not a little moreso, now that I think of it.

I agree with you, there's no reason to conclude that he is physically "up"
from Jack -- I often misused the expression "down here". So Jack's father
could be in anywhere from this hospital across town to the office down the
hall....

Or perhaps "UP" in heaven, that is how I interpret it in retrospect,
Jack is speaking metaphorically. Purposefully vague on the part of
the writers, but Jack is eseentially saying "dig him up out of the
ground and he's still drunker than I am", thats my take anyhow....

[Fred Ellis]

Post by e***@yahoo.com

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by SerenaK
But for some reason I took the "get him down here" a little differently, as
in "get him here to this location", let's say this hospital downtown or
whatever. As in "get him here". But the idea of him being "upstairs" is
equally valid, if maybe not a little moreso, now that I think of it.

I agree with you, there's no reason to conclude that he is physically "up"
from Jack -- I often misused the expression "down here". So Jack's father
could be in anywhere from this hospital across town to the office down the
hall....

Or perhaps "UP" in heaven, that is how I interpret it in retrospect,
Jack is speaking metaphorically. Purposefully vague on the part of
the writers, but Jack is eseentially saying "dig him up out of the
ground and he's still drunker than I am", thats my take anyhow....

Yes, at last someone else understands Jack's reference to "...get my
father down here." as meaning bring my father down from heaven.


Fred Ellis

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Fred Ellis
Yes, at last someone else understands Jack's reference to "...get my
father down here." as meaning bring my father down from heaven.

I also considered this possibility but discounted it because Jack is asking
the doctor to 'get my father down here' which would imply that Jack believes
the doctor has the ability to retrieve people from heaven.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Ryan Robbins]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Fred Ellis
Yes, at last someone else understands Jack's reference to "...get my
father down here." as meaning bring my father down from heaven.

I also considered this possibility but discounted it because Jack is asking
the doctor to 'get my father down here' which would imply that Jack believes
the doctor has the ability to retrieve people from heaven.

Oh pulllleaaaase....

[alooo]

Post by Fred Ellis

Post by e***@yahoo.com

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by SerenaK
But for some reason I took the "get him down here" a little differently, as
in "get him here to this location", let's say this hospital downtown or
whatever. As in "get him here". But the idea of him being "upstairs" is
equally valid, if maybe not a little moreso, now that I think of it.

I agree with you, there's no reason to conclude that he is physically "up"
from Jack -- I often misused the expression "down here". So Jack's father
could be in anywhere from this hospital across town to the office down the
hall....

Or perhaps "UP" in heaven, that is how I interpret it in retrospect,
Jack is speaking metaphorically. Purposefully vague on the part of
the writers, but Jack is eseentially saying "dig him up out of the
ground and he's still drunker than I am", thats my take anyhow....

Yes, at last someone else understands Jack's reference to "...get my
father down here." as meaning bring my father down from heaven.

Let's say Jack does believe in God- and I don't think he does since he's
supposedly the "man of science"- do you think he necessarily believes his
dad is in heaven ("down here") instead of hell ("up here")? And do you think
his statement sounds like something even the most religious of persons would
say about a dead person? Here's his exact words:

JACK: OK, I'll tell you what, you do this. You get my father down here, get
him down here right now, and if I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me.

[tdciago]

Post by alooo
JACK: OK, I'll tell you what, you do this. You get my father down here, get
him down here right now, and if I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me.

You know, reading that opens up another interpretation. It's almost
as if Jack was daring the new chief to fire him by giving him an
impossible task which would be the only way that Jack could get
fired. If Jack is telling some lie about the crash and the island,
which makes him a big hero, then St. Sebastian's might find it
difficult to justify firing him. On top of that, the hospital already
had a messy situation with Christian. Do they want to look bad again,
like the kind of place that keeps drunk/addicted surgeons on staff?
So this *might* be some false bravura on Jack's part.

[r***@bestweb.net]

Post by tdciago

Post by alooo
JACK: OK, I'll tell you what, you do this. You get my father down here, get
him down here right now, and if I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me.

You know, reading that opens up another interpretation. It's almost
as if Jack was daring the new chief to fire him by giving him an
impossible task which would be the only way that Jack could get
fired. If Jack is telling some lie about the crash and the island,
which makes him a big hero, then St. Sebastian's might find it
difficult to justify firing him. On top of that, the hospital already
had a messy situation with Christian. Do they want to look bad again,
like the kind of place that keeps drunk/addicted surgeons on staff?
So this *might* be some false bravura on Jack's part.

I'm considering a similar possibility. Assuming there are two or more
Jacks, identical in appearance excpet for tattoos, this Jack may not
be the surgeon Jack. Some of the scenes in the flashforward have that
same make-a-scene quality I've seen in flashbacks, where a character
deliberately tries to be observed. Jack's knocking over the display
at the pharmacy may not have been from sincere emotion or
carelessness, but so onlookers would remember.

Neurosurgeon Jack was renowned for bullshit surgery (Sarah) and known
to be at least competent at real neurosurgery. His identical twin,
however, doesn't have that skill or training. So they come up with an
excuse for the brilliant surgeon no longer to operate -- that he's
depressed, even suicidal, running thru narcotics & liquor like there's
no tomorrow.

Identical twin Jack also wasn't told where The Island was.

If you're looking for a possible lie that Jack is tired of, this could
be it. Who wants to play a has-been?

Robert

[Morgan Beckman]

Since Lost has (IMO) left the realm of even the fringes of pseudo-
science, we can posit the idea that while Christian may have been dead
prior to the crash, he could be alive in the post-island realm.

They're mucking about with time travel and alternate timelines, so
they can pull a Biff Tanner sports almanac type thing and change the
past.

[Tifer]

Post by Morgan Beckman
They're mucking about with time travel and alternate timelines, so
they can pull a Biff Tanner sports almanac type thing and change the
past.

Can someone - anyone - please explain to me about how they're mucking
about with alternate timelines?

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Tifer
Can someone - anyone - please explain to me about how they're mucking
about with alternate timelines?

The Desxmond incident where he appeared to go back in time. Still far from
conclusive IMO.

We also have Desmond's premonitions. He has seen Charlie's death at several
different times. If Desmond's premonitions were from a consistent timeline,
then he could only see Charlie's death once, which would have come true.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Ryan Robbins]

Post by Tifer

Post by Morgan Beckman
They're mucking about with time travel and alternate timelines, so
they can pull a Biff Tanner sports almanac type thing and change the
past.

Can someone - anyone - please explain to me about how they're mucking
about with alternate timelines?

"They" are not mucking around with timelines. It's just that a few people
here want "Lost" to be a large convoluted piece of time travel hokum just
because Desmond apparently can have visions of the future.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Ryan Robbins
"They" are not mucking around with timelines. It's just that a few people
here want "Lost" to be a large convoluted piece of time travel hokum just
because Desmond apparently can have visions of the future.

Nope. There's just one bullheaded poster who refuses to acknowledge that he
misinterpreted the producers podcast comments from a few seasons back to
outlaw time travel for all future episodes of Lost, even the ones they had
not written yet.

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Morgan Beckman]

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by Tifer

Post by Morgan Beckman
They're mucking about with time travel and alternate timelines, so
they can pull a Biff Tanner sports almanac type thing and change the
past.

Can someone - anyone - please explain to me about how they're mucking
about with alternate timelines?

"They" are not mucking around with timelines. It's just that a few people
here want "Lost" to be a large convoluted piece of time travel hokum just
because Desmond apparently can have visions of the future.

Ok, so you admit Desmond has visions of the future, and you also know
he has seen different conclusions to Charlie's life. How is that NOT
alternate timelines? If there was only a single timeline, Charlie
would always die in the same manner, whether it was drowning to save
Claire, drowning in the station, or by the neck-arrow.

I'll admit I may spoken too hastily when I mentioned time travel,
although it isn't too much of a leap, since Desmond recalls the
"future" (albeit hazily) during his pre-island time.

[tdciago]

Post by Morgan Beckman
Ok, so you admit Desmond has visions of the future, and you also know
he has seen different conclusions to Charlie's life. �How is that NOT
alternate timelines? �If there was only a single timeline, Charlie
would always die in the same manner, whether it was drowning to save
Claire, drowning in the station, or by the neck-arrow.

Your question wasn't addressed to me, but I don't see Desmond's
flashes as necessarily being evidence of alternate timelines that have
been lived before (or simultaneously). I think Desmond has a
premonition of something that will happen unless he changes it. It
doesn't mean that event has taken place before in some other timeline;
only that it *will* occur in *this* timeline if something is not
altered. Once Desmond changes that event, the universe tries to
course-correct by having something similar happen. The details won't
be exactly the same, but the *result* will (in this case, Charlie's
death). So, the various methods of death that we've heard about for
Charlie are each the result of a change that Desmond has made in this
single timeline.

I think the show would become impossibly complicated if there are
*many* timelines (as you seem to suggest by Charlie's various death
scenarios). I could see *two* timelines in the story (say, one for
the island and one for our world), because we'd be able to make sense
of the distinctions between them.

To me, what's going on seems to be a single timeline within which the
smaller details (such as *cause* of death, or *date* of death) can be
changed. In the end, though, the larger vision (the death itself)
will ultimately be fulfilled somehow. We may have free will to alter
the small things, but FATE (as spelled out on Charlie's fingers) is
going to prevail in the end. What we saw in Charlie's death was free
will *meeting* fate.

This could be completely wrong, but it seems more logical to me than
assuming that these characters have all lived many, many variations of
their lives.

[Tifer]

Post by Morgan Beckman

Post by Ryan Robbins

Post by Tifer

Post by Morgan Beckman
They're mucking about with time travel and alternate timelines, so
they can pull a Biff Tanner sports almanac type thing and change the
past.

Can someone - anyone - please explain to me about how they're mucking
about with alternate timelines?

"They" are not mucking around with timelines. It's just that a few people
here want "Lost" to be a large convoluted piece of time travel hokum just
because Desmond apparently can have visions of the future.

Ok, so you admit Desmond has visions of the future, and you also know
he has seen different conclusions to Charlie's life. How is that NOT
alternate timelines?

Easy - Desmond has premonitions of Charlie dying. He stops him from
dying. Using the course correction theory that was given on the show,
Charlie still needs to die, but Desmond sees it coming and averts it.
If he had done this by going to the Looking Glass and dying in
Charlie's place, my guess is he would have still died at some point
shortly thereafter.

I don't see how you say that definitely points to alternate timelines.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Tifer
Easy - Desmond has premonitions of Charlie dying. He stops him from
dying. Using the course correction theory that was given on the show,
...
I don't see how you say that definitely points to alternate timelines.

Let's take the lightning strike, for example. Desmond has a premonition that
Charlie will die by lightning strike. Desmond prevents this from happening
and Charlie does not die.

For lack of a better name, let's call the timeline where Charlie did NOT die
by lightning strike the "current timeline". I think we can all agree that
this timeline is valid, as it is the timeline that continued for the rest of
the season.

So where did Desmond's premonition that Charlie was going to die by lightning
strike come from? He was not seeing the future of the "current timeline"
because Charlie does not die by lightning strike in the "current timeline".

I propose that by definition, it must have occurred in the "alternate
timeline", the one in which Charlie does die by lightning strike.

Note that I am not proposing time travel. Most of us think of multiple
timelines in the Star Trek sense as a character going into the past, altering
some event, and causing "the past" to be changed. This is not what I'm
proposing happened. Desmond acted in the present and changed the future,
which is something that *any of us* can do. However, he acted using
information from the premonition, and this information originated in the
"alternate timeline" (that does not exist because of Desmond's actions)

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Bev Vincent]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Tifer
Easy - Desmond has premonitions of Charlie dying. He stops him from
dying. Using the course correction theory that was given on the show,
...
I don't see how you say that definitely points to alternate timelines.

Let's take the lightning strike, for example. Desmond has a premonition that
Charlie will die by lightning strike. Desmond prevents this from happening
and Charlie does not die.
For lack of a better name, let's call the timeline where Charlie did NOT die
by lightning strike the "current timeline". I think we can all agree that
this timeline is valid, as it is the timeline that continued for the rest of
the season.
So where did Desmond's premonition that Charlie was going to die by lightning
strike come from? He was not seeing the future of the "current timeline"
because Charlie does not die by lightning strike in the "current timeline".
I propose that by definition, it must have occurred in the "alternate
timeline", the one in which Charlie does die by lightning strike.

I'd argue that it corresponds to a potential future timeline aborted by
Desmond's actions.

The Flash Forward, however, was not part of anyone's vision--it was
experienced directly by us. For Desmond's visions, we only viewed them (when
permitted) through Desmond's perceptions. The FF scenes weren't filtered
through anyone else, so I believe they are concrete future events and
nothing done in the island's ongoing present will invalidate them.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Bev Vincent
I'd argue that it corresponds to a potential future timeline aborted by
Desmond's actions.

Sure, that works for me. I take it then you're agreeing that there is more
than one timeline (albeit one a "potential" timeline) ?

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
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Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

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[Bev Vincent]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Bev Vincent
I'd argue that it corresponds to a potential future timeline aborted by
Desmond's actions.

Sure, that works for me. I take it then you're agreeing that there is more
than one timeline (albeit one a "potential" timeline) ?

No, I'm not agreeing that there's more than one timeline for the show. I
don't think this is a multiverse program except insofar as it pertains to
Desmond's mucking about with what might happen if he doesn't intercede. I
believe that what we see in the flash forward is carved in stone and won't
be negated by any actions that take place back on the island before these
events transpire. We are witness to the future as it happened, so there's no
going back. Desmond is witness to the future as it might be before he "gets
there." He makes decisions (as do we all on a second-by-second basis) that
create the unique future that everyone experiences in concert.

[TNKev]

Post by t***@lost.lost

Post by Tifer
Easy - Desmond has premonitions of Charlie dying. He stops him from
dying. Using the course correction theory that was given on the
show, ...
I don't see how you say that definitely points to alternate
timelines.

Let's take the lightning strike, for example. Desmond has a
premonition that Charlie will die by lightning strike. Desmond
prevents this from happening and Charlie does not die.
For lack of a better name, let's call the timeline where Charlie did
NOT die by lightning strike the "current timeline". I think we can
all agree that this timeline is valid, as it is the timeline that
continued for the rest of the season.
So where did Desmond's premonition that Charlie was going to die by
lightning strike come from? He was not seeing the future of the
"current timeline" because Charlie does not die by lightning strike
in the "current timeline".
I propose that by definition, it must have occurred in the "alternate
timeline", the one in which Charlie does die by lightning strike.
Note that I am not proposing time travel. Most of us think of multiple
timelines in the Star Trek sense as a character going into the past,
altering some event, and causing "the past" to be changed. This is
not what I'm proposing happened. Desmond acted in the present and
changed the future, which is something that *any of us* can do.
However, he acted using information from the premonition, and this
information originated in the "alternate timeline" (that does not
exist because of Desmond's actions)

maybe the word "timeline" is what's causing this fuss,it really isn't about
time,it is about events so why not call it a specific line of events or
"eventline" did I just invent a word? :-)

[tenworld]

Post by Morgan Beckman
Since Lost has (IMO) left the realm of even the fringes of pseudo-
science, we can posit the idea that while Christian may have been dead
prior to the crash, he could be alive in the post-island realm.
They're mucking about with time travel and alternate timelines, so
they can pull a Biff Tanner sports almanac type thing and change the
past.

other posters have commented on Star Trek influence on LOST - well
there was a movie where a dead man in a coffin sent to a planet with
strange energies returned from the dead

[Ar Q]

Post by t***@lost.lost
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?

It is quite possible. As a founder of the hospital, even Jack's dad is
retired, he could hold an non-executive position after he retired or at
least hold an office in the hospital. The same thing applies to their
ex-star surgeon Jack.

[t***@lost.lost]

Post by Ar Q
It is quite possible. As a founder of the hospital, even Jack's dad is
retired, he could hold an non-executive position after he retired or at

This would of course assume that he is alive... :)

[which I have no trouble assuming, because I think it's true]

--thelostguy

Games I Play:
The Cerberus Incident, http://www.landofdev.com/cerberus/
Beer Asteroids, http://www.sb-software.com/beerasteroids/

-----------------------------------------------------------
Posted using Android Newsgroup Downloader:
.... http://www.sb-software.com/android
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[Ryan Robbins]

Post by Ar Q
As a founder of the hospital, even Jack's dad is
retired, he could hold an non-executive position after he retired or at
least hold an office in the hospital.

When was it established that Jack's father was a "founder" of the hospital?

[f***@spamcop.net]

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs

Agreed.

Post by t***@lost.lost
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")

I think those two may be more rhetorical.

Post by t***@lost.lost
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.

Agreed.

Post by t***@lost.lost
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead.
Quite the contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say
about your dead father. So either Jack's father is alive, or
Jack is very confused and thinks his father is alive.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that his father
is dead and Jack is using 'upstairs' ironically, in which
case all four points were rhetorical.

Post by t***@lost.lost
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital.
Does he?

I think so.

Post by t***@lost.lost
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me")
yet at the beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor,
did he?

Yes, I gathered that the doc was new hire.

I still favor the interpretation that Christian Sheppard
was actually alive in the flash-forward, and that something
happened that undid some off the lostaway's pre-crash
history. Evidently that worked out well for Kate, and
not so well for Jack.

--

FF

[Hunter]

Post by t***@lost.lost
Dr: "How much have you had to drink today, Jack?"
Jack: "Ok. Tell you what. You do this. You get my father down here. Get him
down here right now and If I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."
1) Jack thinks his father is upstairs
2) Jack thinks the doctor has the ability to go get his father and bring
him there.
3) Jack thinks his father can be brought immediately ("right now")
4) Jack's father continues to have a drinking problem.
None of these lead me to believe that Jack's father is dead. Quite the
contrary, what Jack says is not what you'd say about your dead father. So
either Jack's father is alive, or Jack is very confused and thinks his father
is alive.

---
The latter, Jack in the flash forward is a a depressed suicidal drug
addict and alcholic. Those things are bound to alter your preceptions.
As I said before, Jack is half insane.

Post by t***@lost.lost
1) Jack thinks that he (Jack) still works at the hospital. Does he?
2) Jack thinks the doctor is his boss ("you can fire me") yet at the
beginning of the ep, he didn't know the doctor, did he?
--thelostguy

----
More examples of his delusional state.

--->Hunter